tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post7126208888667834463..comments2024-03-26T10:09:09.149-07:00Comments on Obscure Battles: Shevardino 1812Jeff Berryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-13776973746573840302023-07-24T13:20:22.053-07:002023-07-24T13:20:22.053-07:00From my research for this battle, Tuchkov's II...From my research for this battle, Tuchkov's III Corps was not at the Shevardino battle but was assembling to the east with the bulk of the Russian army behind the left center. See its hypothetical location in the broad map at the top of this post.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-45996079474008618682023-07-13T09:26:27.522-07:002023-07-13T09:26:27.522-07:00See my references above.See my references above.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-45779912960299764392023-07-13T09:25:52.856-07:002023-07-13T09:25:52.856-07:00NoNoJeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-75876413880967845772023-07-11T18:40:28.755-07:002023-07-11T18:40:28.755-07:00Do you have any idea where the Russian (and for th...Do you have any idea where the Russian (and for that matter, the French) baggage train(s) was located?Captain Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12258683012806342747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-67826356872063833302023-07-11T18:39:19.513-07:002023-07-11T18:39:19.513-07:00I just realized (after scouring the map again) tha...I just realized (after scouring the map again) that you have him in the center of the map. Do you recall the source for that placement?Captain Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12258683012806342747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-91648748649286557752023-07-11T18:37:31.831-07:002023-07-11T18:37:31.831-07:00Where do you think III Corps (Tutchkov) was at aro...Where do you think III Corps (Tutchkov) was at around noon on September 5, 1812. I noticed that III Corps is not on you initial deployment map.Captain Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12258683012806342747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-82771294322678450912021-10-11T10:12:48.947-07:002021-10-11T10:12:48.947-07:00Actually, Mikaberidze is one of my sources, listed...Actually, Mikaberidze is one of my sources, listed under my online references. I am currently working on the main battle of Borodino (maps, OOBs and narrative) which will reflect this double line deployment (one brigade in front of the other), though I have rendered the two lines in echelon, with the rear battalions covering the space between the front battalions. I may re-render the Shevardino maps too.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-54465666518756345612021-10-08T11:20:36.026-07:002021-10-08T11:20:36.026-07:00Thanks Jeff. Yes, the sources I've found onlin...Thanks Jeff. Yes, the sources I've found online say the same, but add that the individual battalions were in 2 lines - i.e. 4 battalions next to each other in front, with another 4 battalions next to each other behind. The Mikaberidze book can be accessed on Scribd. The Scribd site has a lot of military history available to read online for a modest monthly subscription.Keith Flinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-42102751075752734462021-10-07T09:28:27.090-07:002021-10-07T09:28:27.090-07:00Thanks, Keith,
I'm following up this post with...Thanks, Keith,<br />I'm following up this post with one on the main battle two days later, using several respected accounts as references. One of the things I find exasperating, and also revealing, is that there is so much disagreement among them; orders of battle, formations, timing, casualties, and eye-witness accounts of what supposedly happened all contradict each other radically. It brings to mind the remark that Wellington made in which he said narrating a battle was like trying to narrate a ball. <br /><br />Like so many historical incidents, there is no universal agreement about this battle. And one finds factions among wargamers about which account to rely on, often dogmatically. I address this as my "obscure" take on Borodino, one of the least obscure battles.<br /><br />As to your question about the deployment of Russian infantry at Shevardino, two accounts I referenced (one archival) describe the Russians formed up in closed platoon columns. Others say just "columns" without apparent interest in what kind. One even says, off-handedly, they were in squares.<br /><br />Another thing I find frustrating in researching my own analyses is the hazy descriptions that many historians make in the tactical distinction between "lines" and "ranks". To be deployed in two lines means that one body of troops is positioned behind another, not that they were arrayed in two ranks. <br /><br />I also find the description of the lateral spacing between battalions/squadrons is usually not mentioned. I have tried to address this in my maps, assuming that troops would be positioned in columns to allow enough intervening space to deploy into line. But that is just an assumption based on tactical practice from the previous century. But the narratives are vague on this point. For all we know, the battalions were packed together, shoulder to shoulder.<br /><br />By doing the detailed scaling that I have on my deployment maps, I have been able to see what the ground would allow, based on the density of troops and their formations.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-10829871543542991982021-10-07T08:37:59.811-07:002021-10-07T08:37:59.811-07:00Sorry- for the record my most detailed source was ...Sorry- for the record my most detailed source was Alexander Mikaberidze, 'The Battle of Borodino', which you don't mention.Keith Flinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-12926381160476346642021-10-07T08:35:25.374-07:002021-10-07T08:35:25.374-07:00Excellent as usual. I'm putting on a game of t...Excellent as usual. I'm putting on a game of this action at Partizan on 10th October, so very useful. <br /><br />Couple of questions if you can - the sources I've used give the Russian battalions behind the redoubt as deployed in 2 lines. And they also give the guns in the redoubt as from the 12th position battery. Any comments?<br /><br />Thanks again for a very thought-provoking post.Keith Flinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-3709940937102888902021-08-06T08:40:30.503-07:002021-08-06T08:40:30.503-07:00Excellent maps,
just use it to setup my Shevardino...Excellent maps,<br />just use it to setup my Shevardino gameboard with 2mm miniatures.Bayernkinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00821491440824018289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-78079643165741170712021-08-04T02:29:38.596-07:002021-08-04T02:29:38.596-07:00Hi Jeff,
No need to apologise! I am amazed that i...Hi Jeff, <br />No need to apologise! I am amazed that it was the only point to query. You have a better editor than a large number of the books I read these days! Including (especially) wargames related ones!<br />I do remember playing this battle at my old club once, using General de Brigade rules. It was a fun game, but playing as the Russians the tide of Frenchmen (catch all for the Grand Armee) was tough to stop. So it is interesting to read your opinion of the effect of the fence lines on the battle. I would be interested to replay it one day with the linear obstacles, see if it is easier to blunt the French advance.<br />Best,<br />EdE Gilheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734915696230386124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-26417199824538145362021-08-03T23:00:54.331-07:002021-08-03T23:00:54.331-07:00Actually, Mr. Tsao, I believe you are quoting Ira ...Actually, Mr. Tsao, I believe you are quoting Ira Gershwin, George's lyricist. from Porgy and Bess. But you knew that. <br /><br />And thanks for the kind compliment on my blog. I aim to please. (Or, even better, to provoke.)Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-4479404225585861732021-08-03T09:13:31.691-07:002021-08-03T09:13:31.691-07:00Oh, and another excellent post. Thank you.Oh, and another excellent post. Thank you.vtsaogameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104194914166417310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-1512455714799005162021-08-03T09:13:03.757-07:002021-08-03T09:13:03.757-07:00To quote George Gershwin, "It ain't neces...To quote George Gershwin, "It ain't necessarily so".<br /><br />As for the AWI, I call the patriots Whigs and the loyalists Tories. vtsaogameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104194914166417310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-57304706529269691422021-07-31T12:40:14.893-07:002021-07-31T12:40:14.893-07:00Oops. Good eye, M. Gilhead. The second mention of ...Oops. Good eye, M. Gilhead. The second mention of #32 Bty under Vorontzov was a typo. I'm going to blame it on the copy/paste function. The first listing, under Neverovsky, was the correct one. This was the battery (at least the eight 12-pdrs, minus the 4 licornes) that was set up in the redoubt. <br /><br />Thanks for spotting this. I do try to proof my articles and graphics before I post, but it's good that my readers help, too. An old editor of mine warned against authors proofing their own work, because we will just read what we intended and not what is there. It's good that this work in digital and I can amend it after it's published.<br /><br />Correcting now.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-32649752488381051092021-07-31T10:45:06.227-07:002021-07-31T10:45:06.227-07:00Ha, ha. Very prudent restraint on your part.
I e...Ha, ha. Very prudent restraint on your part. <br /><br />I envy you having actually visited the site. Nothing like going there yourself to understand a battle.<br /><br />Re; revisionist history. I was going to say that the Russians are masters at revising history (and even science), but then we in the West don't do a bad job of twisting it ourselves. And, to give your driver some leeway, Napoleon did ultimate lose the campaign and the war(though not the battle). <br /><br />I remember when I was in the 8th grade, I was infuriated by my history teacher, Mr. Zielinski, who told us that the American "patriots" during our Revolution were particularly cruel to loyalists (which we misnamed "Tories" over here). He also told us some other unpatriotic and--to my mind, false--things about the Revolution. I went home to complain to my dad, an arch-conservative Republican, that he should go confront this commie. And my dad surprised me by asking how I knew Mr. Z was wrong, and encouraged me to go to the library and do some research myself. I took that advice and found, to my horror, that Mr. Z had been right, that there are two sides (actually many sides) to history, depending on who is reporting it. That incident informed my skepticism thereafter, not just in school but in consuming news and my amateur love of history. <br /><br />I went to Mr. Z and apologized for doubting him, and he was so kind and evidently pleased, and gave me a list of other books I could look up on the subject. I'd like to think he drew satisfaction from teaching at least one student how to be discriminating. <br /><br />So, to cut this short, that is part of the spirit behind this blog. What we thought we knew wasn't necessarily so.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-54264604126020861512021-07-30T10:59:45.665-07:002021-07-30T10:59:45.665-07:00More superb work, Jeff.
I persuaded my brother i...More superb work, Jeff. <br /><br />I persuaded my brother in law to lend me his chauffeur for the day so that he could drive me from Moscow to Borodino and it was well worth the time and trouble. It's a fantastic battlefield and the small museum is great. It's all very Russian though: The stones with plaques, showing the positions of all the Russian units, is suitably counterbalanced by no plaques for the French.<br /><br />As the chauffeur said to me "I've never been here before. We were all taught in school about what a great Russian victory the battle was."<br /><br />To the end, he was adamant that the French were routed. Who was I to argue, stood in a muddy field with a strident 6' 4" tall Russian and not a witness in sight! <br /><br />Memories, memories.....JAMES ROACHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019888286247164276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-65674870977193720982021-07-30T02:27:25.050-07:002021-07-30T02:27:25.050-07:00Hi Jeff, only one query. You list the 32nd Positio...Hi Jeff, only one query. You list the 32nd Position battery twice in the Russian OOB. Is that on purpose due to the confused Russian command structure on the day? Or were there 2 similarly named batteries in different Div?E Gilheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734915696230386124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-47826798581538625752021-07-30T01:46:30.101-07:002021-07-30T01:46:30.101-07:00Brilliant work Jeff! Thank you for your hard work ...Brilliant work Jeff! Thank you for your hard work in creating this wonderfully engaging write up on what is an obscure battle due to the over-shadowing from the confrontation a few days later. It deserves to be given the same depth of investigation as a battle such as Quatre Bras, but it never is. It is also very interesting to read through your thoughts and thoughts on the Russian commanders present.E Gilheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734915696230386124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-55867163524132060022021-07-18T06:28:46.110-07:002021-07-18T06:28:46.110-07:00Fantastic post - worth a second read throughFantastic post - worth a second read throughfireymonkeyboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05833974263127787678noreply@blogger.com