tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post6936624695682052436..comments2024-03-26T10:09:09.149-07:00Comments on Obscure Battles: Marengo 1800Jeff Berryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-6671899494426828422023-08-14T17:59:28.032-07:002023-08-14T17:59:28.032-07:00Sorry, Rob, afraid I don't know for sure. Sinc...Sorry, Rob, afraid I don't know for sure. Since he's wearing an artillerie-a-cheval uniform it may be Marmont, who was Bonaparte's commander of artillery. But he may just be a battery commander. <br /><br />The only characters I know for sure in this painting are Bonaparte himself, and in the center distance, Dessaix, being blown off his horse.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-21280348844268411922023-08-13T03:34:58.486-07:002023-08-13T03:34:58.486-07:00Do you know the identity of the mounted figure fro...Do you know the identity of the mounted figure front and centre just to the right of the the african driver?<br />Also, do you know if Murat is in the picture? Perhaps the guy in the czapka behind Bonaparte?Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-41253853331314011512023-07-08T09:47:41.775-07:002023-07-08T09:47:41.775-07:00Thank you, Cristiano. As I pointed out in the capt...Thank you, Cristiano. As I pointed out in the caption to that painting, Lejeune was an actual eye-witness, as well as an accomplished painter. His attention to detail is so accurate. I managed, on my honeymoon to Italy way back when, to convince my patient bride to take a side trip over to Marengo, where I could bore her with its narrative. And we drove all over that plain that afternoon. When we got home to Los Angeles, she actually helped me build my sand table. What young people do for love!Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-49792273223399275072023-07-01T01:18:30.139-07:002023-07-01T01:18:30.139-07:00Quite interesting to notice the extreme geografica...Quite interesting to notice the extreme geografical detail of the painting by Lejeune. The church you see in the background is the church of the village of Mandrogne, between Marengo and San Giuliano, and it's still there today, with that distinctive bell tower. Also the mountain in the background are visibile. So we can say that the "shot" is taken from a north-south perspective (in fact with the sAustrians on the right side) in the location now called "Vigna Santa", where Desaix was killed. If you go there today, and you look south from the main road "Alessandria-San Giuliano", you can see exactly the same view. Greetings from Piedmont, Italy. Cristiano Druettonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-8776836450421364702023-06-29T13:40:41.872-07:002023-06-29T13:40:41.872-07:00The church in the background in the Lejeune painti...The church in the background in the Lejeune painting is the church of the village of Mandrogne, near Alessandria, and it's still there. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiesa_del_Santissimo_Nome_di_Maria_(Alessandria)<br />In the background the Appennino Ligure Mountains. So the "shot" is taken from north to south in the area now called Vigna Santa, where, in fact, Desaix was killed. The paint is very accurate, and today you can see almost the same view looking south in the main road.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-42614620633524719252022-07-16T10:51:19.554-07:002022-07-16T10:51:19.554-07:00Thank you so much for these links and your thought...Thank you so much for these links and your thoughts, Aidan. I shall definitely go visit them later this weekend. <br /><br />I have myself long been intrigued by climatic and weather factors in historical events. I even wrote a term paper in college, on a then-new theory of how a series of volcanic eruptions in Indonesia so impacted worldwide climate as to cause massive crop failures in Europe during the first decades of the 14th century, exacerbating effects of the Black Death of 1348, which caused catastrophic population decline (est. 50%). Indeed, one later theory was that the Little Ice Age actually started in the early 14th century instead of, as was previously assumed (due to tree ring analysis) the 17th century. <br /><br />Then there were the repeated years of crop failures from bad weather that led to famines in France in the 1780s, triggering the massive uprisings that culminated in the French Revolution. <br /><br />But Lord knows what future palaeologists will find in the tree rings of our own age. Or what population declines will ensue in the coming decades and centuries.<br /><br />I wish, back then (in the late 20th century, not the 14th) that I had access to the Internet to do my research, instead of long nights in my college library. Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-69024615330800364112022-07-16T03:07:16.772-07:002022-07-16T03:07:16.772-07:00As for volcanos, the most famous has to be the eru...As for volcanos, the most famous has to be the eruption of Mount Tambora in April 1815, the largest volcanic eruption ever recorded. There have surely been eruptions as large or larger in the distant past, but Tambora's was the biggest eruption properly measured. It pumped so much ash into the atmosphere that it led to the notorious 'Year without a Summer' in 1816. BBC Radio 4 did quite a good programme on this which you can find here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b077j4yv It's part of the In Our Time series which, if you aren't familiar with it, is an excellent regular programme on history, culture and, occasionally, science, with an archive going back 30 years. 1816 and the following years were a time of poor harvests, which coming on the heels of the Napoleonic Wars and in the midst of reactionary governments and widespread terror amongst the elite about uprisings and revolution created quite a volatile situation. I can't remember if they mention this in that BBC programme, but in that period the British artist Turner filled nearly a whole sketchbook with watercolours and pencil sketches of skies and clouds (called by art historians the 'Skies sketchbook'). He painted and drew quite a lot of these anyway, but clearly he was more preoccupied with them around 1816 than at any other time. It's been supposed that his keen eye found the skyscapes more interesting than usual, almost certainly as a consequence of the Tambora eruption and it's impact on weather conditions and cloud formations worldwide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-39607370027368195402022-07-16T03:07:09.764-07:002022-07-16T03:07:09.764-07:00Thanks for that NOAA article, Jeff, that's ver...Thanks for that NOAA article, Jeff, that's very interesting. I'd always wondered what the earth's temperatures were in prehistoric times, and there's the answer.<br /><br />I've been aware of the "Little Ice Age" for a long time, but it must have slipped my mind, or perhaps I assumed 1800 was an outlying year. Never mind. We've cleared it up now. <br /><br />I haven't had a chance to do much more reading on it recently, but there's a few things I've come across over the years to do with the Little Ice Age and its effects. I didn't know that the Greenland and Nova Scotia settlements declined at that time but that makes perfect sense, given their exposure to the elements. The research into the early-modern climate change (if you'll pardon my extension of the 'early-modern' to the 13th century) tends to focus on two periods. The first is the 14th century, with the drop in temperatures in the very late 13th century, the period of famines in the mid-1310s, and then the Black Death in mid-century. The other period that's attracted attention is the 17th century, the trough in the temperature graph with a nadir around 1640. This period sees the Thirty Years War in Europe, the Civil Wars/War of the Three Kingdoms in Britain, the Ming-Qing Cataclysm in China, frequent outbreaks of plague and so on. The distinguished historian Geoffrey Parker - who mostly works on early-modern Spain and the Thirty Years War - wrote a book a few years ago called 'Global Crisis: War, Climate Change and Catastrophe in the Seventeenth Century.' The thesis was not new, but it is probably the most systematic and extensive (not to mention readable) account of the impact of climate in the 17th century. There were some silver linings to these heavy clouds though. The most famous of violin makers, Antonio Stradivari, lived and worked in the later 17th century and early 18th century. Because of the climate (and, if the Maunder Minimum theory is correct, then directly because of the lower solar activity, which is reckoned by some to be at its lowest between 1650 and 1715 - reference for that here: https://www.swsc-journal.org/articles/swsc/full_html/2017/01/swsc170014/swsc170014.html#:~:text=The%20Maunder%20minimum%20%28MM%29%20was%20a%20period%20of,of%20a%20large%2C%20direct%20solar%20influence%20on%20climate.) the gap between tree rings each year was much smaller, producing a denser wood. There is a theory (difficult, if not impossible, to prove given the subjective elements involved in the claim) that this wood growth gave Stradivari's violins a distinctive sound that cannot be achieved in wood cut from trees in warmer times. Of course there's Stradivari's own craftsmanship as a key factor in that sound, but it's a hypothesis I like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-9927543248831497442022-07-15T15:06:44.084-07:002022-07-15T15:06:44.084-07:00Ah! Yes, Aidan. That makes sense now. I too couldn...Ah! Yes, Aidan. That makes sense now. I too couldn't find specific temperatures for Italy for 1800. It is such a round number, after all. And I seem to recall that the "Little Ice Age" that lasted from sometime in the 13th century (after a big volcanic explosion) until well into the 19th, saw lower temperatures all over Europe. Some have attributed that to the reduced sunspot activity (Maunder Minimums), but it's hard to make a definitive correlation. <br /><br />It is interesting, though, to find natural events that may have impacted famous historical ones. of course, the rise in Earth's temperature in the last century is off the charts historically, not matched since the Eocene. Here's an interesting page from NOAA's website:<br /><br />https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/whats-hottest-earths-ever-been<br /><br />I also recall that one of the reasons for the catastrophic decline of Nordic settlements in Greenland and Nova Scotia in the 13th century was the onset of that Little Ice Age.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-11931366513862620052022-07-15T08:37:14.626-07:002022-07-15T08:37:14.626-07:00Thank you! But I fear I may have misled you about ...Thank you! But I fear I may have misled you about 1800's June temperatures. This was from a BBC television report on 13 July, but after a bit more digging it seems this may have been a trap of ambiguous wording. I think the quote was that recently released data from Italy has shown that "the month just gone was the hottest June the country has seen since 1800." I took this to imply that 1800 was, until this year, the hottest recorded Italian June, but I don't think that's right. 1800 was the year Italian temperatures were first recorded (possibly a French military initiative, given the Revolutionary fervour for empirical measurement, but I'm not certain). So what was actually being said was that 2022 has seen the hottest Italian June since records began, irrespective of the actual temperatures in 1800. Given that the general global climate experienced a long cool period from c.1280 A.D. until the early 19th century (a very rough graph for that can be found here http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm) it does seem unlikely that 1800 saw peak temperatures anywhere. Apologies for that. I'll do my research next time rather than relying on non-historical news articles. In my reading I did come across this website which records historical weather details (mostly in London or South England) which is interesting, and might be of some use if you haven't already come across it. https://premium.weatherweb.net/weather-in-history-11000bc-to-present/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-61106282812029075872022-07-13T19:18:26.796-07:002022-07-13T19:18:26.796-07:00Why thank you, Aidan. And welcome. I was not aware...Why thank you, Aidan. And welcome. I was not aware that it was the hottest June in Italy til now. Would you mind linking me to the story you read that so I could possibly add that statistic to this article? Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-12971121091433149162022-07-13T11:27:57.226-07:002022-07-13T11:27:57.226-07:001800 was, until this year, the hottest Italian Jun...1800 was, until this year, the hottest Italian June on record. This was announced on UK news today and made me think, "I wonder what the weather conditions were at Marengo," and here I am. My first time on your excellent website. I'm not a military history specialist by any stretch, just a generalist in all things 18th and 19th century, but I'm delighted to find myself here. The battle accounts are superb, and what a splendid company of urbane and knowledgeable commentators. I will certainly be back again. Aidan Rosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-31553115776319366862021-04-11T16:49:21.313-07:002021-04-11T16:49:21.313-07:00Wait a minute. Let me submit this question to my q...Wait a minute. Let me submit this question to my quantum supercomputer and see...<br /><br />...Yes. Your calculations are correct.<br />Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-31735498432457739902021-03-31T15:03:36.326-07:002021-03-31T15:03:36.326-07:00So if I needed 3 maps for a Kriegspiel game it wou...So if I needed 3 maps for a Kriegspiel game it would be $90?Treadheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17105693217220465362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-49964546714141642021-03-30T10:10:06.930-07:002021-03-30T10:10:06.930-07:00You can contact me directly about buying my maps v...You can contact me directly about buying my maps via my business email: jeff@peoplesbranding.com<br /><br />In case that wasn't obvious.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-53511668728431775342021-03-29T17:54:04.810-07:002021-03-29T17:54:04.810-07:00Thank you, Treadhead. Yes it is. I can prepare a h...Thank you, Treadhead. Yes it is. I can prepare a hi-res map without troops (but with labels and scales). I usually export them to a PDF at a scale of 1000 dpi, where 1 px = 1 yard. I charge $30 per map for personal use (i.e. no resale or reprint license), which I would upload to a protected folder for you on Dropbox, which you can download from. Files are large (25-75 Mb). Then you can print them out at whatever scale you like. <br /><br />Let me know if you'd like to buy any and I can prepare and upload them.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-33672634691484920332021-03-27T15:55:36.849-07:002021-03-27T15:55:36.849-07:00Hi Jeff....is it possible to get a base map with n...Hi Jeff....is it possible to get a base map with no troop dispositions on it and second, can the map be scaled to 1:7500? I play a lot of the original Kriegspiel game and your maps would be superb for that.Treadheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17105693217220465362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-69211201048985604832021-03-20T11:14:03.003-07:002021-03-20T11:14:03.003-07:00Thank you for your anonymous comment. I would refe...Thank you for your anonymous comment. I would refer you to my sources above (Chandler, Esposito, Arnold) for details of where all the troops on both sides in the Italian theater were deployed. But not believing that Melas would have stripped all of his fortresses and positions across Northern Italy in order to concentrate against Napoleon is just a matter of...well...to put it delicately, not understanding the strategic situation. You have to remember that neither Bonaparte nor Melas knew where and in what force either was, or what their intentions were. Melas made a lot of mistakes prior to and during this battle, but that's just us amateur arm-chair generals forming uniformed judgments. We weren't there. We didn't have the information the people on the ground had. And we didn't have satellite reconnaissance. And we had to rely on unreliable spies (see above), rumor, and sloppy cavalry scouting. <br /><br />I might also add that what you call a "key engagement" for Melas wasn't necessarily the way he and his staff saw it at the time. Apparently, he thought Napoleon was moving on Genoa or Turin, and saw an opportunity to hit him with the forces he had on hand when French forces were also spread out across Italy, destroying a segment of Bonaparte's army rather than the whole thing. Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-40036535251784238472021-03-17T12:37:43.161-07:002021-03-17T12:37:43.161-07:00I don't think you ever covered where Melas had...I don't think you ever covered where Melas had dispersed the majority of his army. Roughly 30,000 out of 108,000 is quite a small number for the key engagement. Although I'm not sure, the rest of the army was in Turin--where Melas speculated Napoleon would strike--and the rest in Genoa/and other small garrisons? Quite hard to believe he had only 30k to send to fight Napoleon's army, or had Napoleon's surprise arrival actually work that stupendously? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-81140243208780623472021-01-14T04:45:15.745-08:002021-01-14T04:45:15.745-08:00That's a great post about one of the most inte...That's a great post about one of the most interesting battles of the period on one of the most boring battlefields. I was there in 2000 for some days. I participated in the reenactment of the battle and it was interesting to use the same ground only little changed here for 200 years. Many of the houses looked empty and the size of the villages didn't grow too much to overbuilt the area as it is the case elsewhere on important battlefields such as Emmendingen (1796 - a view on a portion of the battlefield on my blog). You did a great work and I loved your style to say that little is known completely and the details could be so or different. I loved the painting by Lejeune since I knew it. <br /><br />Your posts are always very inspiring and I would say that they are often better then books about the same events. Amtmann B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02939313112868431455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-30330475526693851352020-12-12T14:02:36.138-08:002020-12-12T14:02:36.138-08:00Thank you so much. Since I started working on this...Thank you so much. Since I started working on this particular battle I have learned more about ancient methods of agriculture than I would have dreamed.<br /><br />Merry Christmas right back. And lets hope for the brightest new year possible. We deserve it.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-18508009100777674842020-12-12T05:29:08.651-08:002020-12-12T05:29:08.651-08:00Thanks Jeff for yet another magnificient entry. I ...Thanks Jeff for yet another magnificient entry. I am also delighted by the lively and informative discussion. Vineyards setup with a similar technique to those discussed here are still common in NW Spain (look up Albariño for the grape and wonderful wines).<br /><br />Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, Jeff!BletchleyGeekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145222773978473856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-47122317846264846612020-12-08T23:49:27.281-08:002020-12-08T23:49:27.281-08:00Thanks, Riccardo. Italian, as you can tell, is not...Thanks, Riccardo. Italian, as you can tell, is not my second language. I'll make the corrections. I love when my readers can help me proof read. Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-6289886480746171862020-12-08T06:58:04.531-08:002020-12-08T06:58:04.531-08:00Simply outstanding as all other of your articles. ...Simply outstanding as all other of your articles. I wish I had your map study when I did my historical scenario for NTW. Living just an hour drive form Marengo I have visited the battlefield many times but your insights (and those by Mr. Hollin, Casoli and others) of terrain are unvaluable. Pity that the Marengo museum is now open only on weekends (even before Covid time). Just a minor note, the plural of cascina (big rural farm) is cascine and not cascini.<br />Looking forward to your next (hopefully napoleonic) work.<br /><br />RiccardoRiccardo Vieccanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-41093128493950778072020-12-07T15:49:39.833-08:002020-12-07T15:49:39.833-08:00I used some quite detailed local maps to create th...I used some quite detailed local maps to create the maps in the Osprey and that was a case of joining the dots to create the contours. Generally there is a gentle slope towards the east, but where the factory is, there appears to have been a very slight rise and fall. It may of course also be an effect of the vegetation - the cereal crops in those days did grow four to six feet high and that height is affected by what is in the ground. So, it might produce that impression of rise and fall where the actual ground is flat. Terry talks about the ground on p.113. Where the old and new roads split near the Fontanne, it is about 95m above sea level. However, north of there at the Rana farm behind Marengo, it is 105m. That higher ground extends south to the new road, so going under the factory. So, it would block the line of sight across that area. David Hollinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182268984965655932noreply@blogger.com