tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post6008161205007095550..comments2024-03-26T10:09:09.149-07:00Comments on Obscure Battles: Crécy 1346Jeff Berryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-14562295126175279832021-12-02T06:39:49.113-08:002021-12-02T06:39:49.113-08:00It is difficult to get the perspective of the batt...It is difficult to get the perspective of the battlefield from some of the pictures. If you stand in Edward's position you are at the top of a significant hill looking down. I would not want to be a Frenchman or a Genoese crossbowman attempting to come up that hill in the face of highly trained longbowmen.<br /><br />Good article - interesting detail.Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00324112984316220709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-67900349917936157712020-06-22T13:58:38.357-07:002020-06-22T13:58:38.357-07:00My point in this article exactly. The French lost ...My point in this article exactly. The French lost this battle due to indiscipline in their central command. Had they had as tight control of their army as Edward had of his, I'm sure that Edward would not have hung around to wait for them to deploy. As it was, the French proved their own worst enemies. Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-55003579740179688162020-06-22T09:41:51.584-07:002020-06-22T09:41:51.584-07:00Knowing the general practices of medieval European...Knowing the general practices of medieval European warfare, Edward would probably not have stayed to fight if Philip had been able to exert enough control to hold his army back and deploy it during the night or early the next morning. The English would probably have viewed the delay resulting from the French deployment as an opportunity to pack up and get back on the move, especially since the larger size and less uniform organisation of the French host would also have made it more difficult (and take longer) to redeploy it back from battle formation into a marching column. This might, in fact, have been Edward's preferred outcome since he couldn't have been 100% certain that the battle would develop the way it actually did. He wouldn't have had the freedom to besiege the Channel ports in this case (since the French king's army would still have been hanging onto his rear) but the delay could have bought him time to march with a minimum of hindrance towards allied cities in Flanders, where he would have had the luxury of using friendly ports to reembark his army (or alternatively to resupply and reinforce it for the next year's raiding season).Pradana P.M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08770430133869092145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-54007673944558697102018-01-13T12:10:57.278-08:002018-01-13T12:10:57.278-08:00I don't think a change of command would have h...I don't think a change of command would have helped the French. It seems that it was more of a systemic flaw in the French chivalric culture that doomed it. No charismatic leader or brilliant tactician could have stopped the avalanche started by d'Alencon and the mob of knights. Edward's England had a more established and centralized government and command authority. Philip's France was, in the 14th century, still just a loose collection of independent nobles with no tradition of discipline or central authority. It should be remembered that Philip himself was not feeling too stable on his throne and could not afford to impose his will on his nobles. He was not Louis XIV. He even got some sage tactical advice prior to the battle (e.g. from de Bazeilles)and started, wisely, to act on it, but he was unable to stop the battle once his idiot brother had started charging. <br /><br />As to what other factors might have made a difference, I think that the time and weather were important. Had it not been raining (soaking the bowstrings) and had the sun not been right in the eyes of the Genoese crossbowmen, they might have been able to make a decisive impact on the English line with their fire. This would be something to test in a wargame.<br /><br />Another alternative scenario might have been the time of day that the French started to arrive on the field. Had it been earlier, not only would the sun not have been in their eyes, but they might not have felt the urgency to "get this thing over with", allowing cooler heads to prevail and move the army up through Estrees and toward Wadicourt in an attempt to envelop the English. As it was, the late hour only fanned the impatience of d'Alencons and the French knights.<br /><br />Another factor might have been if the English had not prepared the slope with pot holes to trip up and blunt the French cavalry. As this was a standard defensive tactic among the English, it would be an artificial rule in a wargame to prevent the side playing Edward to do this. But it would be interesting to see if it would have made a difference to the momentum of the French cavalry charge. Perhaps they might not have had time to prepare their position (as a timing variant above).<br /><br />By all means, experiment away.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-15446258439403537182018-01-13T04:03:46.941-08:002018-01-13T04:03:46.941-08:00Thank you Jeff. So how do you think that the Battl...Thank you Jeff. So how do you think that the Battle at Crécy could have had another result? King Philipp not present and maybe the venerable John of Luxembourg in command?Rincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05657355841065604017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-78217972285233264362018-01-10T11:57:02.561-08:002018-01-10T11:57:02.561-08:00An interesting premise for a wargame. It does, tho...An interesting premise for a wargame. It does, though, present a whole new set of potential rules to govern the game engine, ones involving interpersonal dynamics. Would it have made a difference, though, is questionable given the tempestuous infighting in Philip's court, and the many enemies Raoul de Brienne had among Philip's relatives. Also, since the Constable was himself made the scapegoat for losing Caen to the English earlier that year (even though his own monarch refused to come to his aid), I doubt if he had the political clout or charisma to take control of the mob that was the French army at Crecy.<br /><br />As I studied this period and this campaign, it seemed to me that the lesson learned from Crecy is that the English had a coherent command structure under Edward and the French had virtually none at all. I think there is a valuable lesson to be applied even to our present geopolitical climateJeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-90990440069264269222018-01-07T23:42:16.795-08:002018-01-07T23:42:16.795-08:00Thanks for the article, great stuff and enjoyable ...Thanks for the article, great stuff and enjoyable style.<br />Having wargamed the battle yesterday I confirm that the French don't stand a chance if playing "historically".<br />I'll try the game once more, ahistorically what if the Connétable de France had been present and commanded the French forces?Rincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05657355841065604017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-47044339338667500722017-08-17T23:29:47.909-07:002017-08-17T23:29:47.909-07:00Thank you so much, David. It is heartening to lear...Thank you so much, David. It is heartening to learn of your appreciation. I do love doing these. But you can probably tell.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-67261287010048329442017-08-17T06:49:32.954-07:002017-08-17T06:49:32.954-07:00I really enjoyed your article on Blenheim and I ha...I really enjoyed your article on Blenheim and I have enjoyed this one equally. Your attention to detail and your writing style are engaging and left me wanting more. Great stuff, many thanks! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632625481582605948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-34161566453374306912017-07-10T07:48:52.403-07:002017-07-10T07:48:52.403-07:00Great summary, very interesting.Great summary, very interesting.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03866817402926665074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-50004417376732411982016-02-29T06:41:16.465-08:002016-02-29T06:41:16.465-08:00Some historians speculate that John of Bohemia com...Some historians speculate that John of Bohemia committed "suicide by battle". He made sure his (slightly injured) oldest son and co-ruler Charles is in safety and went to die.a Czechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13908144466416861718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-86445318050864916942015-10-19T07:04:49.470-07:002015-10-19T07:04:49.470-07:00Jeff,
I find it fascinating that there are still s...Jeff,<br />I find it fascinating that there are still such discussions, about the exact locations of such history defining battles during the ancient and medieval periods! Perhaps his book does provide more evidence, it would be an interesting read. <br /><br />It is a pleasure to read your writing! I've long been a student and wargamer of Napoleonic warfare (ever since seeing Sharpe as a kid on TV!) However I'd never realised that the WSS and SYW were so dynamic. One is always lead to believe that is was all rather dull and linear!! <br />EdE Gilheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734915696230386124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-30629608019588747852015-10-17T13:10:08.620-07:002015-10-17T13:10:08.620-07:00Interesting but unconvincing article on Medievalis...Interesting but unconvincing article on Medievalists. Doesn't offer any forensic or archaelogical reasons for the new claim other than his assertion that Philip would not have been so dumb as to attack the English on top of a ridge. I should like to read his book, which, I hope does offer concrete evidence. I go by Sagan's Rule: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."<br /><br />And thank you so much, Ed, for your kind words about my blog. That you have read all the articles swells my heart with pride. I am currently working on another post (hopefully to be published soon) but have been sidetracked by my day job.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-71682485385273788332015-10-13T05:41:18.117-07:002015-10-13T05:41:18.117-07:00Hi Jeff,
Just wanted to say thank you so much for ...Hi Jeff,<br />Just wanted to say thank you so much for writting this series! It has been incredibly interesting reading your write ups. I'm hoping you post more soon as I have current reached the end!<br /><br />I was just wonder what your thoughts were on the proposed 'new' site of the Crecy battlefield? (http://www.medievalists.net/2015/09/29/new-location-for-the-battle-of-crecy-discovered/)<br /><br />Thanks! <br />EdE Gilheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734915696230386124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-31149592926038118222015-05-05T12:24:02.393-07:002015-05-05T12:24:02.393-07:00Thank you both for not just your kind compliments,...Thank you both for not just your kind compliments, but for reading it at all. I love doing these.Jeff Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09188876209461291938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-33592088856610572762015-05-05T09:32:37.572-07:002015-05-05T09:32:37.572-07:00Wonderful. Thank you so much for the work.Wonderful. Thank you so much for the work.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285663488268274646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1403809316122064334.post-32034980328453256132015-05-04T16:31:34.737-07:002015-05-04T16:31:34.737-07:00Delightful as always. Delightful as always. Steven Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15660319600299545537noreply@blogger.com